|
Post by awralls on Apr 10, 2019 1:42:43 GMT -5
Can I ask something for clarification. I've been using FSC for a looonnng time but never tried the following scenario and since it involves many hours flying, I didn't want to embark on it without a reasonable expectation of what should happen. (I've never used time-acceleration, and don't want to start down that socially unacceptable and corrupt route.... ) I'm using the BOAC 1953 timetable, flying a B377 on the route EGLL-EGPK-CYQX-KJFK. Clearly, the jolly interesting bit is the EGPK-CYQX leg. Most times, it will be just about doable in one leg but often, in winter especially, it's a non-starter. Consequently, the normal airline procedure was to flag stop at EISN. However, as far as FSC is concerned the timetable doesn't include EISN so, what happens if I simply fly EGPK-EISN, land and plan the trans-Atlantic leg, and fly it? Does FSC simply allow this to happen, and wouldn't I get seriously penalised for being a couple of hours late? Cheers, Andy
|
|
|
Post by peter on Apr 10, 2019 3:53:47 GMT -5
Hello Andy, that's a really interesting scenario you are flying there As for your question: I do not believe that FSCaptain currently includes the option of a flag stop. However, I wonder if Travis and Dutch would get interested in adding this after they read your thread Until then, you have several options. - If you foresee that a stop may be necessary, you could plan a stop at EINN (isn't EISN Shannon control?) as part of your legs. - You could divert to EINN for refueling and then plan EINN-CYQX as your next flight. - You could land, take the penalty, and later appeal the penalty in the Administrator. - You could plan the flight to EINN and divert to CYQX if you see that you have enough fuel, but I am not sure if FSCaptain would accept that you divert to an airport that is 2000 miles away. Cheers, Peter
|
|
|
Post by awralls on Apr 10, 2019 9:11:01 GMT -5
Merci Pierre,
Yeah, you're right about the Shannon code. That's what you get from relying on 64-year-old memory cells!
So, basically, you're confirming what I thought. I would have to build the EGPK-EINN leg into the FSC schedule (and make it EGLL-EGPK-EINN-CYQX-KIDL)and then divert to CYQX if it became unnecessary. That make sense?
Andy
|
|
|
Post by peter on Apr 10, 2019 17:16:30 GMT -5
Hi Andy,
that's one of the options I suggested, and actually the (IMHO) least attractive. I personally would just appeal the penalty, or divert to EINN if necessary. However, the other option may also work. I suggest to try it out.
Cheers, Peter
|
|
|
Post by Travis on Apr 17, 2019 20:38:43 GMT -5
Andy, I would hope that the long-standing FSCaptain use of "refuelling stops" would work here. But as I haven't made such a stop in... well over 7 years... I could only hope they still work as Dutch intended. So I would hope that if you were to have planned an EGPK-CYQX flight, and added in enough extra block time to account for an (nn-minute?) "descent, landing, taxiing, refuelling, taxiing, takeoff and eventual climb-to-where-you-were" phase, that you would be able to manage your arrival / block times. If this doesn't work for some (bizarre) reason, you know the drill. Send me your FCDU log(s) for the flight. (I include the plural because I fly FSX, and Captains Like Us have OOM issues. ) ---- I wasn't aware of the term "Flag stop" and after my searching and reading about its aviation useage, I have some cunning ideas to run past Dutch and Peter.... Best,
|
|
|
Post by awralls on Apr 18, 2019 1:16:13 GMT -5
Trav, I'm ex-RAF and I think it derived from the phrase 'showing the flag'. The only thing about refuelling stops that I'm unclear on is...do the pax not disembark? Therefore, as far as FSC is concerned, how does it discriminate between a refuelling stop and a straight diversion? Sorry to appear clueles. Although I've been using this brilliant software for the last 10 years, I've never actually done a refuelling stop. [EDIT] Ah-ha. Found this thread from 2012: fscaptain.proboards.com/thread/1037/refueling-stopsThat may have been the way it was working then, but now that TOD is called if you descend over 1/3 of your cruising altitude, that would no longer work, no? Andy
|
|
|
Post by alaskanflyboy on Apr 18, 2019 2:39:08 GMT -5
I'm ex-RAF and I think it derived from the phrase 'showing the flag'. In the US, it just means a stop made only at request, typically with some sort of signal (aka flag). We have a phrase here, "flagging down", that I believe is in the same vein. It's used as "flagging down a bus" or "flagging down a cop" to get them to stop by you. I wonder if it's the same etymology for the British.
|
|
|
Post by awralls on Apr 18, 2019 3:40:56 GMT -5
John,
Your explanation makes more sense, although we never had that means of stopping buses/trains. Buses...you stick your hand out and trains stop at the scheduled station and nowhere else. But, I'll buy your version.
Andy
|
|
|
Post by alaskanflyboy on Apr 18, 2019 13:02:46 GMT -5
John, Your explanation makes more sense, although we never had that means of stopping buses/trains. Buses...you stick your hand out and trains stop at the scheduled station and nowhere else. But, I'll buy your version. Andy I don't know if our trains still have flag stops anymore either. That was more a signal post letting the train know it needed to stop for passengers or freight at the next station. With the advent of radio communications and automated trains that it was a thing of the American Old West.
|
|
|
Post by Travis on Apr 19, 2019 12:34:05 GMT -5
Trav, I'm ex-RAF and I think it derived from the phrase 'showing the flag'. I'm not certain on this, but I would take "showing the flag" something done by a "flag carrier" airline. "Showing the flag" has a gunboaty-feeling to it, IMO.... There's no PAX movement except at loading and final disembarking (whether at your planned destination, your alternate destination, or a diversion stop, or an emergency stop.) You're no more clueless than I am on this, but I feel you may be correct on that last assumption! I think I've made one such stop a long time ago, and there may be other logic in play which might cause havoc with refuelling stops. But I'm now thinking of a different take... because you brought up a "diversion". What if you planned your flight to CYQX, and if you decide mid-flight that a refuelling stop might be in order, you simply Divert to where-ever and make a landing there... which would end this flight. You could then spin up a new flight to CYQX (using the same PAX numbers and trying to get the same payload). If that works, then for a new version I could add 'choices' to the Divert Confirm FCDU screen which would let us know that you're making a quick stop and want to continue to your original destination. Then we would keep the PAX in their seats and leave the flight 'open' so you could continue your journey without having making a "new flight." Or if there was some reports of severe weather between you and CYQX, you could end the flight where you landed and everyone can bed down for the night, and restart after the weather has passed. ----- On a tangential subject, we need to work on our "PAX travel model" so that if you're taking 100 PAX from A to B and thence to C... how many PAX would choose to stay at B, and how many PAX would board at B to go to C? That would boost the possibility of implementing my cunning (optional) plan for one day. I'll mention it in InvisoText below. Assume you are taking 100 PAX on a flight from KSEA to KMIA on an aircraft which could hold 150. Your route is set to take you within a hundred miles of KMCI.
Somewhere about halfway through your flight you get a message from Dispatch. 26 PAX in KMCI need to be picked up and delivered to KMIA now and you've drawn the golden ticket.
Or you may get the 'pickup message' before you originally depart, so it won't come totally as a shock as you're having your well-earned mid-flight martini. [LOL]
Either way you would have to throw your original planning out of the window, and adjust. You'll get a KMCI parking assignment (if your airline calls for such) and because all of this is a PITA, you'll get Hero Points & Pay.
And naturally Block Time and any Scheduled Arrival time gets thrown out of the window... or greatly extended.Best,
|
|
|
Post by Travis on Apr 19, 2019 13:00:26 GMT -5
I don't know if our trains still have flag stops anymore either. That was more a signal post letting the train know it needed to stop for passengers or freight at the next station. With the advent of radio communications and automated trains that it was a thing of the American Old West. Lucy and I had two different childhood bus systems. Mine was a rural school bus. If there was no child standing by the road, the school bus as a rule would stop for a minute or so - just in case the pickup child was late. Some parents had unofficial agreements with their driver that if their child wasn't ready, the bus could speed on by. Lucy rode city buses which have 'signalling cords' that an onboard PAX could use to signal they wanted the next stop. At some bus stops if no one was waiting, and no one onboard the bus had signalled to depart, the bus would not stop that time. I agree that older rural-ish train systems had flag systems, and what you describe makes sense. And I'd be surprised if modern Amtrak wouldn't make each and every stop regardless. YMMV.... Best,
|
|
|
Post by Travis on Apr 19, 2019 13:19:05 GMT -5
I think I've made one such stop a long time ago, and there may be other logic in play which might cause havoc with refuelling stops. I'll plan a refuelling stop test for my weekend. It'll be a corker!! (KMER - KSCK with an unscheduled stop at KMOD. LOL) Best,
|
|
|
Post by awralls on Apr 20, 2019 1:18:48 GMT -5
Trav,
Everything you suggest would all work fine, but I wonder if you're adding complexity to solve an extremely rare situation. Speaking personally, I'd love you to implement something along these lines, but I fear that it would be a lot of work for little return. I guess I'm shooting myself in the foot here because what you propose would suit me down to the ground, but I recognise that my sim flying is of a rare and unusual type i.e. I fly exclusively prop-liners in the classic period. Met planning then was necessarily inaccurate, resulting in in-fight decisions to divert for fuel or weather. However, I'm fairly sure the majority of your customers fly modern stuff where planning is based on far more accurate information and the situation is most unlikely to arise.
I'm not trying to discourage you expanding or refining the fuel diversion options, but if I'm honest, there's other things I'd prefer to see further up the priority list. Fuel management on through flights is, to me, something that would benefit all eras and represents daily occurrences but is completely absent in FSC.
Nevertheless, if you do make changes to refuelling diversion handling, I'd be happy to help test whatever you produce.
BTW, I agree completely with your wish to refine through pax handling. Again, that's a regular occurrence on muti-leg routes.
The cunning plan in invisio-text sounds fun but I guess it would really only be applicable to contract-type flying? A more typical way it's handled is that a multi-leg flight is scheduled and at intermediate stops some pax leave the flight and some new ones embark. The effect as far as the crew are concerned is that the AUW changes necessitating some quick replanning, although that's mostly handled by ACARS these days. However, for classic period flying, it would be absolutely brilliant.
All the best,
Andy
|
|
|
Post by Travis on Apr 21, 2019 22:56:22 GMT -5
Hi Andy, So I have some good news for you. After clearing out a big problem in my system (just before my Easter Lunch), I was able today to make this flight: KMER - KSCK with an unannounced stop at KMER. Now here's a map of the planned flight: The line I drew on the map is actually the route of all of my initial 'large aircraft interface' test flights. ("Starting on the lower right of the map, take off on Runway 31." "Climb to 4000 feet." "Capture ILS." "Land." Boom.) In my trusty Caravan, I took off and started a 900 fpm climb on the runway heading. I entered TOC at 4000 ft and started my "luxury Caravan service". ("Sandwiches and juice boxes tossed over your shoulder!") When that finished, I switched my autopilot to Approach mode for KMOD and waited to capture the glideslope. I acquired glideslope and began my descent. TOD was always available. I likely didn't climb enough to manage the auto-trigger....Since I fly with MSD - Minimum Safe Distance - I received an MSD callout from my FO just before landing at KMOD. Since TOD wasn't enabled, I could not issue a Landing Warning to my FA. (Which didn't matter here.) I landed at KMOD, and the FCDU gave me my assigned parking spot at KSCK. (That's a bug to be fixed.) Once I slowed down, the FA gave the "Refueling stop speech" and when I set Parking Brakes and stopped my engine, the FCDU "Refueling Screen" appeared: I added 20lbs of fuel (HA!) and clicked PROCEED>Then I was sent to the "Taxi for Departure" screen. I wasn't able to issue a TO Alert, so I took off for KCSK just as if I knew what I were doing. A minute or so later I received another MSD caution from my FO. We were at about 1000 AGL then. I checked the COMMs screen and my "Time from last report" was pointing to my POS report just before landing at KMOD. I then went on and called TOD when I captured the KSCK glideslope - a minute before my next scheduled report. I gave the landing warning, and landed normally, taxied to my assigned spot, and 112 points were in my bag! (Priority, on-time, smooth flight, nice landing, etc.) ----- My suggestion for now is to use "The Olde Refueling Stop" option by simply landing at a place to get fuel, and then taking off when you're done. Yes, that feels 'old school' so I like it! ----- You'll have to use the Transition Altitude / Level of your actual Destination airport for now until we can make a workaround for that. At the moment, I feel that should be subsumed into the DIVERT routine.... Regards,
|
|
|
Post by awralls on Apr 22, 2019 2:31:34 GMT -5
Trav,
Well, that's encouraging. Gives me some hope that if I get to the end of a 12-hour trans-Atlantic flight I won't have wasted my time! 😎 I'm just slightly concerned that you didnt trigger the TOD threshold but that's probably me being paranoid.
Thanks for testing and confirming that it works.
Andy
|
|