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Post by xpel on Feb 26, 2020 0:49:22 GMT -5
My opinion, keep things simple for now. AIs must be a bit overpowered compared to users anyway, to be challenging, since they make dump decisions compared to humans. I suggest, Ace AIs can turn as hard as a human without G-effects in use and scalar downwards to less skilled AIs. Provided they loose energy as humans after high G turns that is. For now, "feed food to the hungry", ie, "bring kids to papa", ie, release the updated AIs...
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Post by Dutch Owen on Feb 26, 2020 2:44:27 GMT -5
My opinion, keep things simple for now. AIs must be a bit overpowered compared to users anyway, to be challenging, since they make dump decisions compared to humans. I suggest, Ace AIs can turn as hard as a human without G-effects in use and scalar downwards to less skilled AIs. Provided they loose energy as humans after high G turns that is. For now, "feed food to the hungry", ie, "bring kids to papa", ie, release the updated AIs... Food is provided...the next release is now available in the usual spot (the "Latest Version Right Here" thread of course) Check the README for details as usual. Work is proceeding on defensive moves and decisions but I'm not going to spend a huge amount of time on it, I need to get back to the radar work. Next combat ability work after better defense will be on energy fighting. Right now no attempt is made to boom & zoom. Dutch
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Post by xpel on Feb 26, 2020 3:56:10 GMT -5
That was fast... and AWESOME !!! 1 VS 1 , P-40 vs BF-109 at default "around 5 skill level", and, AWESOME !!!! Now we're talking !... Stunning dogfight action.
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Post by xpel on Feb 26, 2020 10:21:51 GMT -5
What you've achieved, makes me chill of enthousiasm. After flying & Tacviewing, here is my observation :
AI opponent is commited in hard turning. Tries always for lead or neutral pursuit. Thus he makes the most classic mistake... In close dogfight, having more energy than me, tries for hard turning, thus at some point inevitably overshoots, with myself spiraling downwards and while in lower speed & altitude, I can turn tighter.
If there'll be a detection method from AIs part that is going to overshoot, so that reduces tight turning (lag pursuit) and/or keeps his altitude instead of following user's downward spiral, it'll be the most sofisticated AI that I personally happen to know...
This has to do with the energy management we discussed above.
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Post by Dutch Owen on Feb 26, 2020 10:49:47 GMT -5
Thanks again Chris! I feel like we're getting close, at least in horizontal mode. I've been thinking about vertical offense and I think it's just a variation of the bomber approach mode they already have.
Could you post (or send me, dutch at fscaptain dot net) your Tacview .acmi with comments on the moment when he over commits, with a suggestion on what he could have done differently? I think I understand your point but an illustration would be clearer for me. I think the problem will be how to detect the situation so he can avoid it.
Right now, in the turn fight the AI tries to match the user's speed. I think what you're saying is that if we're closing too fast on the target we need to throttle back and slow down below his speed so as not to overshoot.
Dutch
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Post by xpel on Feb 26, 2020 12:38:48 GMT -5
P40vBF109_Skill5.zip (179.08 KB)Have a look at : 2:21 until 2:48 and 6:26 until 6:47 In both cases, I turn with steep vertical dive, trying for a low yo-yo, since he has the energy advantage. Him, instead of turning at plane level for few secs (3-4) to maintain altitude advantage & speed, and create vertical seperation from me, and then tightly to dive turn, thus remaining at my six, instead, is coming relative balistic and tries with a tight dive turn for guns resolution against me. Result, since his faster than me & at the same time diving, he overshoots. The second time was fatal, since he crashed on the ground (I didn't manage to register hits on him...). That's good. So, he already has a counter action. It's just not enough, especially when diving.
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Post by StuB on Feb 26, 2020 16:02:22 GMT -5
Back in the days I flew AirWarrior online...Yes, I'm dating myself.... there was a maneuver that often worked against inexperienced pilots. It was called the "Rope A Dope" and it was employed by experienced players (usually flying a BF-109K4) against an aircraft that had superior rate of turn but a weaker rate of climb. The way it worked was this:
At the merge, the experienced pilot would make a very slight climbing turn and see if the other pilot tried to match it. If the opponent did, they would then start gradually increasing their rate of climb as they turned. Inexperienced players would keep on turning and trying to match the climb. After a few turns, the inexperienced player would be on the verge of stalling and turning at a very poor rate. At this point they either stall or try to make a break for it, but they were usually too low and too slow by this point and were basically dead meat.
It would be interesting to see how the AI responds to a Rope A Dope situation.
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Post by xpel on Feb 27, 2020 16:29:57 GMT -5
And the video of dogfight against a skill level 5 AI BF-109, of post above :
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Post by Dutch Owen on Feb 27, 2020 18:48:14 GMT -5
Back in the days I flew AirWarrior online...Yes, I'm dating myself.... there was a maneuver that often worked against inexperienced pilots. It was called the "Rope A Dope" and it was employed by experienced players (usually flying a BF-109K4) against an aircraft that had superior rate of turn but a weaker rate of climb. The way it worked was this: At the merge, the experienced pilot would make a very slight climbing turn and see if the other pilot tried to match it. If the opponent did, they would then start gradually increasing their rate of climb as they turned. Inexperienced players would keep on turning and trying to match the climb. After a few turns, the inexperienced player would be on the verge of stalling and turning at a very poor rate. At this point they either stall or try to make a break for it, but they were usually too low and too slow by this point and were basically dead meat. It would be interesting to see how the AI responds to a Rope A Dope situation. that would be worth a test...but... The problem we have with typical FSX/P3D simulated warbirds is that short of A2A-level payware it's not likely that the airplane will match the strengths and weaknesses of its real-world counterpart all that well. Yes, in real life the 109 had a rate of climb that few other aircraft of the time could match. But does that mean that, say, a freeware 109 will have an outstanding rate of climb that beats most other warbirds? The reason I doubt it is because few if any sim makers have designed the flight dynamics of their sims with dogfights in mind. Just like they have no working weapons switches, the makers never imagined their creation used against others in a combat situation. For most, if they can fly decently and look authentic that's all they are looking for. I'd bet the rate of climb of a typical simulated BF109 won't be any better than a typical sim Spitfire and neither will match the real-world performance. As a personal example, the Aeroplane Heaven/Just Flight Hurricane looks and superficially performs like an authentic Hurricane - until you put it in combat. Then you find that it's impossible to even make a 5 G turn in it holding the stick all the way back. It is effectively turn-limited. From what I have read, the real-life Hawker Hurricane was slower but more maneuverable than either the Spitfire or the BF-109. But in the sim it's not very maneuverable at all. And why would the designers care? They did not imagine anyone would want (much less NEED) to make a 5 G turn in the airplane. But as it is it's suicide for me to even take on an average Bf-109 AI pilot, he will out-turn and kill me. Not realistic - Hurricanes accounted for 60% of the Luftwaffe losses in the Battle of Britain. Dutch
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Post by xpel on Mar 15, 2020 17:13:24 GMT -5
Above post is quite true and this trait stands as a big "block" in the quest of turning FS into a combat sim with similar fidelity as the dedicated hardcore combat sims out there.
On the other hand, most simmers in FS don't care about hardcore, not even study level plane simulations. Big majority hits "ctrl+e" ang go to fly. Even developers have realized this and aim for the medium level simmers with medium level (thus cheaper) creations. I rank myself in this medium level community and "what I like" also.
So, I don't consider it big problem, if not "falls" into distinctively unrealistic simulations. Ability to create and fly your own simulations, with your imagination being the limit, is what makes FS for me such a special simulator. This is it's main trait and appeal to simmers.
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I have flown and worked my ass over the weekend, with RFN's F-8 Crusader new release. Finally I have a fighter for Vietnam (apart Dino's A-4 for ground pounding - MLVZ F-4 I consider "heavy" & complicated) and I'm still learning to fight with her... She just refuses to turn hard. No way I can outurn the AI Migs, even at high speeds (450+, the only chance for an opportunity shot). With difficulty exceeds 5 Gs.
Anyway, she's really challenging to fight with and also land on carrier. Ie, I like her.
Where is the post about scalars reduction ? I need to remember the info about where I put the entries for the Era or Team, so that I don't reduce globally in FSCAI.
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Post by Dutch Owen on Mar 16, 2020 12:24:37 GMT -5
Above post is quite true and this trait stands as a big "block" in the quest of turning FS into a combat sim with similar fidelity as the dedicated hardcore combat sims out there. On the other hand, most simmers in FS don't care about hardcore, not even study level plane simulations. Big majority hits "ctrl+e" ang go to fly. Even developers have realized this and aim for the medium level simmers with medium level (thus cheaper) creations. I rank myself in this medium level community and "what I like" also. So, I don't consider it big problem, if not "falls" into distinctively unrealistic simulations. Ability to create and fly your own simulations, with your imagination being the limit, is what makes FS for me such a special simulator. This is it's main trait and appeal to simmers. //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// I have flown and worked my ass over the weekend, with RFN's F-8 Crusader new release. Finally I have a fighter for Vietnam (apart Dino's A-4 for ground pounding - MLVZ F-4 I consider "heavy" & complicated) and I'm still learning to fight with her... She just refuses to turn hard. No way I can outurn the AI Migs, even at high speeds (450+, the only chance for an opportunity shot). With difficulty exceeds 5 Gs. Anyway, she's really challenging to fight with and also land on carrier. Ie, I like her. Where is the post about scalars reduction ? I need to remember the info about where I put the entries for the Era or Team, so that I don't reduce globally in FSCAI. There's an explanation of the scalars and their use in this thread: fscaptain.proboards.com/thread/4083/configuring-fscai-optionsI appreciate the point that many simmers just aren't interested in the finer details of aircraft matchups and I think that's good because FSX/P3D is seldom going to be able to match the high fidelity of a combat sim like DCS in that regard. That Crusader looks interesting I'll have to give it a try soon. Always love to see new quality freeware appearing! I'm pretty sure that the F4 being unable to turn against the MiG's (-19 or -21) is historically accurate. I remember reading the "Have Doughnut" reports on the tests of a captured MiG-21 and the test pilots recommended to the USAF that for the F-100 or F-4 that pilots avoid turn fights against the MiG and if caught in one to disengage from the fight. One F-4 pilot said the MiG-19 turn rate "has to be seen to be believed". The big heavy American fighters were no match for the lighter nimble MiGs when it came to turns. Dutch
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Post by xpel on Mar 16, 2020 13:17:19 GMT -5
Seems that was not clear the way I wrote it, but I'm reffering to F-8 Crusader as modeled by RFN (not the mlvz F-4). I believe the way they have applied Crusader's flight model, doesn't make justice for USNs/USAFs best air superiority fighter worldwide at her time and best dogfighter in America... Kind of similar with what you wrote Dutch about Hurricane unable to pull over 5 Gs.
At least based on this History channel documentary :
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Post by StuB on Mar 16, 2020 18:37:36 GMT -5
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Post by xpel on Mar 16, 2020 23:51:04 GMT -5
Usefull info. Thank's.
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Post by xpel on Mar 18, 2020 3:54:49 GMT -5
Here's a confirmation of what I wrote above, from "Bazaar" of Aeroplanes Heaven : You can read the full post about "Ctrl/ezy" models in SOH : www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php/118888-Cntrl-E-pilots-please-readIn my opinion/perspective, this is good news for the concept of combat flying with FS, as an alternative, to dedicated hardcore native combat simulators. Not just good news but somewhat critical/needed, a prerequisity, for combat simming in FS. Because, if the plane you fly is complex, resulting in consuming almost all of FS resources, then there is no room for additional programs to run like FSCAI, Tacpack, AI traffic and/or FSX@WAR, resulting in no smooth flying experience, killing any immersion. With that kind of planes in use for combat flying, FS does have the virtual environment visuals, plane model/cockpit immersive visuals, combined with the scripted action ability (Mission System or ASL) to deliver the combat flying experience in a big enough audience that don't prefer hardcore combat sims for various reasons (one important being the time - effort needed for study level combat sims) but they do want/wish for the combat flying. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// On another matter, inspired by the first down town strike at Hanoi's thermal power plant in 1967, that I watched in History channels documentary of above post : 2 x A-4s AI escorted by 2 x F-8s (AI & user), getting ready for the mission. That's the unique ability of FS to simulate any scenario you imagine :
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