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Post by Dutch Owen on Sept 10, 2019 21:14:13 GMT -5
Captains,
This release is live. It represents dozens of bugs and flaws in the ground attack handling fixed. Plus a new feature - a new configuration file "Wings.cfg".
This new files allows you to easily configure substitute aircraft that will be spawned as wing men or opponents, by model type you are flying.
This solves the problem that arises when a clone of your aircraft wouldn't be a good AI airplane, either wing man or opponent.
You can specify the opponent to spawn and all three wing men, and all three can be different aircraft titles. Thus you can define mixed groups of aircraft.
If you use this, or modify any configuration file manually, be sure to copy it to the Config_USER folder to preserve it from updates.
Dutch
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Post by xpel on Sept 10, 2019 23:49:48 GMT -5
Thank's Dutch for your work. Very convenient features these you've added.
Figuring out & Imagining all this great potential that FSCAI delivers, I feel like "Alice in Wonderland"...
Now, off with my new Mustang for A2G and test this new version...
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Post by xpel on Sept 11, 2019 1:55:33 GMT -5
I did two test flights. 3XAI Mustangs & me, vs, 2XAI BF109.
Overall, this version is great improvement regarding the AI A2G part (plus added features). 2 out of my 3 AIs, dropped pairs of bombs
with quite good accuracy upon the target area.
Regarding the "AI crash to ground" part : In first flight, 2 out of my 3 AIs crashed. 3d AI continued attack with rockets (!), causing damages
to the FSX@War targets. In second flight, all 3 crashed.
Crashes happen inside 1-2 mins interval from initial bombs drop. My sense is that this has to do with a.) bug in transitioning from Ground Attack
to AirtoAir mode and/or b.) stalling while turning. Maybe both, but my sense is mainly the a.)
I'll test without AI opponents later & report back.
On another note : AI BF109, entered a cloud. Upon exit, "sees" nobody & keeps going straight. After I finished the engagement with the other AI,
he was 24 miles away...
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Post by xpel on Sept 11, 2019 2:24:43 GMT -5
Ok, I tested without AI opponents.
Problem is with their turning. Dutch, remember that you had reduced speeds in some early version for the AIs
to turn tighter ?... Now they have more bank & less speed, resulting in loosing altitude while in turn & crash to
ground (my AIs were flown at 2000ft).
On another note & different subject : By reducing the AI speeds (see above), feeling of dogfight have changed also.
With previous version was much more dynamic, high speed - high g chasing of the AIs. They dogfight could result
from deck up to operational altitude and vice versa... with high speed barrel rollings towards the surface.
That was more adrenaline pumped. This version is kind more realistic. Maybe something in between is the cold line.
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Post by Dutch Owen on Sept 11, 2019 8:22:58 GMT -5
Regarding the crashes, this must also have to do with the flight dynamics of the specific AIs. I did extensive testing using the MAIW P-47 and P-51 as my wingmen, and in many, many ground attacks from between 2000 and 3000 feet, with multiple passes using bombs, rockets, and strafing not one ever hit the ground.
However, I get what you're saying about the speed, so since this is all experimental I'll add an overall "speed adjustment" that applies to all AI in the options, and an individual speed adjustment factor in the Combat.cfg per model. This will allow us to experiment with the effects of speed adjustments.
There's also this: in previous versions the AI ground units were all but disabled from firing at AI (but not the user). There were several bugs and they have all been fixed so AAA will cut loose on AI with full fury. And flak is more deadly now. I had so many AI aircraft shot down I couldn't test and had to remove the AAA. IN the Heinkel attack on Hawkinge I use to test whereas before they all bombed and flew away in formation, now the last test I ran two were lost to flak and two to Spitfires. More would have been but I couldn't pursue them because the remaining escorts kept harrasing me.
About the cloud situation I'm not sure what to do about clouds. It doesn't seem realistic at all to ignore them. Right now they have three effects. One, if an AI is in a cloud he can't see anybody to target them. Two, if an AI is in the clear he can't see any other aircraft that's in a cloud for targeting. Three, Any time an AI loses sight of an enemy either because he or the enemy entered a cloud he drops them as a target. I'm not sure about three - it results in many target drops. But what's the alternative?
Another side effect of clouds is that they seem to cover an area larger than their visual area in the sim. By playing about near clouds I can cause the AI to drop me as a target without ever losing sight of him myself, and this is very exploitable. However, to ignore clouds is to give the AI a tremendous advantage of unrealistically attacking you in clouds as if they weren't there (for him, but not you.)
Lastly, I don't think the AI is aggressive enough in dogfights. I have gotten better and now I shoot them all down usually without getting hit once. I'm going to have to think about how to get them to get into offensive position more forcefully.
Dutch
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Post by xpel on Sept 11, 2019 14:14:58 GMT -5
- Yes, I've thought of this myself also. If such the case is, I'll probably use to types of F/B planes : P-47s & P-51s with MAIW files for the A2G role mainly,
and with P-51_Racer file for A2A role mainly.
- About the clouds matter and #3 concern : How about a probability to lose or not target based on AIs skill ?...
- Yes, sure. In 1 vs 1 dogfights.
But on the other hand :
a. When there are many AIs in the area & you are "fixed" chasing your own target, surprises can & do occur... Ie, checking your Six is important (or head ons also...)
b. When AIs are challenging to shoot'em down (using appropriate aircraft files & speeds, as we described above), result is that you burn fuel, you may burn your engine
lose situational awareness & probably you get away of all other AIs anyway...
c. AIs engage other AIs with the same chances during operations.
I mean, yes, but look the entire picture... The aim (at least for me) is simulation of military operations, not 1 vs 1 dogfight. For this is DCS or whatever native combat sim
out there. Satisfaction that I'm after, derives from the holistic simulation experience that concerns Taking off from AirBase with other AI comrads, Fly in formation to our Objective,
Do our job there & RTB "everyone" for landing. Flying the plane using the clickable cockpit (mixture/prop pitch levers, etc), with Dynamic Head Movement enabled to add to the
experience (in hardcore dogfight servers this is off for precise aiming...) and simulation starts even before... by entering/exiting the cockpit (with EZDOK)
d. When it comes to missiles age, what you need aggresiveness for ?!...
e. Try to fly without using Red Labels (Full Real), using only zoom to check the surroundings... What happens then ?...
By no means, this means that I don't want more capable AIs coming after me. But I appreciate very much what I have with this FSCAI version just right now !:
Objectives & targets to shoot at / Ground defences to shoot me down / Challenging hostile AIs to shoot down / My AIs to care about and protect...
With complex scripted scenarios - operations (FSX/P3D Missions or FSCAI Assignments) that will provide users the experience I describe above, is where the Full Potential
of FSCAI lies, not in 1 vs 1 dogfighting...
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Post by xpel on Sept 11, 2019 16:19:18 GMT -5
There is no problem with AI crashes with FSCAI ! Sorry for your troubles Dutch...  Problem was that my AIs were following FSX Mission Wpts, with the last one upon the target area. If FSCAI was not running, what they would do, should be keep going straight & level "for ever". With FSCAI on, they try to do what FSCAI tells them and the same time what FSX tells them. Result = crash on ground. Ie, my crashes were due to the fact that FSX was "fighting" FSCAI. I tested in Free Flight, spawning 3 wingmen from FSCAI, the same AIs I had crashes with (and of both AI P-47s types tested : default MAIW & my modifications in 2 seperate Free Flights), and there was absolutely no AI crashing... Very impressive to watch the AIs shooting rockets on the targets !!...and FSX@War targets explode. Though not FPS friendly situation the AI "rocketing". Nevertheless, I spotted something that needs correction : When an FSX@War target is destroyed (FSX@War_"nameofsimobject"_des), AIs consider this simobject spawned by FSX@War as target and initiate attack against it also... (until destroyed "FSCAIwise") |
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Post by Dutch Owen on Sept 11, 2019 16:20:40 GMT -5
About dogfights. I don't want to optimize FSCAI for one-on-one dogfights because those are rare in reality although for fun purposes simmers do it all the time now that they can  But, I do want the user to respect the ability of his opponents one on one or not. Right now, I have lost some respect as my own skills have improved in one-on-one. I know I will win. I want there to be at least some fear factor. You're right, with missiles it's a whole other ball game. And it's fine like it is except the AI could try a little harder to get in firing position but once they do they do let fly with missiles. But here I am talking about basic gun-fighting. I think, after a few test 1-on-1 ones today, I realize one thing that's missing. I'm fighting a Spitfire that keeps on climbing above me. But when he's up there, he just floats along for a while until he floats down and when he comes down it's not straight at me but around to my rear where he hopes to get in offensive firing position. But I intercept him and get on his rear instead. Even if i don't and just fly straight and level it takes him an eternity to get set up behind me - but when he does set in position he will blast me to bits. When he's in that top position and able to dive on me he should do it, not maneuver for my rear. In fact at any point where it's feasible he should simply turn and attack straight at me. That's when he does the most damage - I fear him on the merge and avoid the head-on. If I wasn't confident he was not going to fly straight at me from his perch the fear factor would be back. I'll be on a trip this weekend and not back until Sunday night. But I'll be thinking about the parameters for "feasible" in deciding to stop maneuvering for position and just fly straight in for a gun attack. I know one is to be above the target and in a position to make a dive that's not an extreme angle and with enough altitude to recover. This would add "boom & zoom" to the AI's toolkit, and it's sorely needed. Thoughts? Dutch |
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Post by StuB on Sept 11, 2019 18:53:14 GMT -5
You could have the AI make firing/maneuvering decisions based on where they are in relation to the gun or missile envelope surrounding their target.
If you haven't already done so....I highly recommend reading Fighter Combat, Tactics and Maneuvering by Robert L. Shaw. Aside from being a great read, I'm certain it has the kind of info you need to make the AI fight realistically. It's as close to a real "Fighter Pilot's Bible" as you will ever get. |
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Post by Dutch Owen on Sept 11, 2019 20:29:24 GMT -5
Thanks for the tip, I've been meaning to get to that book on Scribd sinec you first mentioned it, I guess it's time to burn that 30-day free trial to get it.
Dutch
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Post by xpel on Sept 12, 2019 0:28:26 GMT -5
Reason for my AI crashes can be totally different after all !... You see 4 x AIs were flying in relative close formation. They picked their FSX@War targets, situated close to each other (the targets). Problem seems to occur when : a target that has been picked by an incoming AI, is destroyed by another AI, thus AI #1 "doesn't Know how to behave" in such an occasion... resulting in a turn crash. After that, a "chain reaction" occurs that leads to crash every other AI, one after the other. This is the case when AIs have not be spawned
as wingmen via the FSCAI menu ("F" key), but with other means, like CCP, FSX Missions, etc. In that case, a good/clear seperation of the AIs before the attack, with a time seperation interval of 10-20 secs of each one to reach the target, solves the problem. If attack initialization goes right, there seems to be no problem after that. And, Oh boy, what damage they make !... ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// EDITED :After more tests, my conclusions for AIs that haven't been spawned via FSCAI Menu, are : 1. A good/clear seperation of the AIs at attack initialization, with a time seperation interval of 10-20 secs of each one to reach the target & drop weapons. 2. The AIs must not be controlled by the sim via Wpts before attack initialization (tested in FSX Missions, about CCP, I don't know but I expect similar). This means you can have AIs following Wpts to get at target area, but near the area, they have to be substituted by new ones that don't fly in Wpts. Either way, this info is of minimal interest / concern for users majority who use the FSCAI AI spawn function. |
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Post by Dutch Owen on Sept 12, 2019 7:32:42 GMT -5
Thanks for that careful diagnosis. It sounds like from my end I need to handle the situation where a AI ground target is destroyed while an AI is on a run towards it. This is a situation I anticipated and there's a function named "Ground_Retarget" that's supposed to handle it but I need to take a close look at it as it appears to be failing to do its job.
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Post by xpel on Sept 12, 2019 16:32:45 GMT -5
I guess AIs for targeting, use some kind of "marker" (simobject ?).
Is there any chance AI weapons can destroy these "markers" of other AIs, resulting the second AI in loosing "lock" of their target ?... (and thus revert to "searching" or crashing ?...)
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Post by Dutch Owen on Sept 12, 2019 18:51:05 GMT -5
All this is handled in the code with no need for any markers or anything exotic. FSCAI maintains a list of all active SimObjects and their status and when a target is destroyed or disabled any AI targeting it will disengage and the targeting function will see them as free and reassign them to another target. If that's not happening it's a bug somewhere. The hardest thing about finding it is setting up the conditions since AI are supposed to split up targets. If I had two wingmen one with AGM-65 missiles and the other with rockets and one truck as target they would both target it, the missile guy would destroy it, and the other guy should disengage too - if not that's the bug.
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Post by StuB on Sept 12, 2019 21:51:32 GMT -5
All this is handled in the code with no need for any markers or anything exotic. FSCAI maintains a list of all active SimObjects and their status and when a target is destroyed or disabled any AI targeting it will disengage and the targeting function will see them as free and reassign them to another target. If that's not happening it's a bug somewhere. The hardest thing about finding it is setting up the conditions since AI are supposed to split up targets. If I had two wingmen one with AGM-65 missiles and the other with rockets and one truck as target they would both target it, the missile guy would destroy it, and the other guy should disengage too - if not that's the bug.
The AI flights behavior during an attack should depend on the mission type.
If it is a strike mission, the whole flight will make a run on the target, in whatever intervals and from whatever direction the mission briefing called for.
So, if a flight of four is tasked with striking a bridge, they all drop on it, no matter if the lead aircraft already hit it.... so nobody should disengage.
If it is a Close Air Support (CAS), or an interdiction mission, each target will be attacked until destroyed.
Since there is (or at least there should be) a chance that lead misses the target, number two should be in position to roll in on the target...... followed by number three and four respectively, until the target is destroyed.
From what I have researched on the SEA air war, during the mission, the flight would be holding near the target (either by direction of the flight lead or the FAC, if one is in control). The lead aircraft would roll in on the target with number two positioned to be ready to roll in behind him soon after he pulls off of the target. If a FAC is present, he will clear number two in for attack. If no FAC, then number two rolls in and either confirms target destroyed or attacks the target. Same would go for the rest of the flight members.
Hopefully, there will be something in the code that replicates the effects of being attacked on the AI. After all, real people will probably be trying to keep their heads down....or shake off the concussion effects after being bombed....or at least nearly bombed. Maybe give reduced accuracy by lowering the hit probability percentage the closer the rocket or bomb hits in relation to the AI object?
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