Majestic Dash 8 - 'Flaps Extended' stays red during De-icing

[noel]

...despite extending or retracting flaps.  What's worse is the routine in the FCDU doesn't complete the de-icing prep, it sort of gets stuck, though you can hit Return and then try to avoid accidently cancelling the flight in your attempt to get past the De-icing Prep!  Thanks in advance for insight on this one.     

[peter]

Hi Noel,

did you check in external view whether the flaps are actually extended? The Dash 8 is very realistic, if you shut down the engines the hydraulic power would not be strong enough to move the flaps. I think you have to extend the flaps before shutting down the engines.

Best,
Peter

[Travis]

I'm guessing that the MJ Q400 isn't reporting its flap position. (That's a guess, btw. Peter's idea seems more profound.....)

Please send us your FCDU log file(s) for this flight and we will see.

Regards,

[noel]

Ok I will send log files. It happens with every flight. Correct me if I'm wrong Peter, but you're going to request de-icing BEFORE you start engines, no? I think you are correct in saying flaps aren't moving--I looked exterior view and didn't see this. So how does one commence w/ de-icing prior to engine start? I have the APU on, and there is another hydraulic function control that you turn on, PFE or something like that I forget, and that's on as well.

[peter]

Hi Noel,

sorry, I was a bit distracted by testing the remote deicing feature that will be published soon. In that case you start the engines, taxi to the de-icing facility and shut it down again.

Of course you are still de-icing at the gate
I would try starting the APU, switch on APU air and see if that will enable you to move the flaps. If not we will have to read up on how Q400 are de-iced in real life. I have seen a video of a Q400 being de-iced with running engines at a remote de-icing facilities, maybe the requirement to shut down the engines has to be relaxed.

Cheers,
Peter

[noel]

Indeed the flaps don't operate unless the engines are running.   The APU doesn't do it nor does the GPU.  GSX won't let you de-icing unless you're parked near the gate I believe, or maybe that is FSC's requirement I forget.  Maybe one way might be to start one engine just to get the flaps extended prior to boarding but after fueling.   When flaps are extended, then shut down the one engine.    Then choose GSX's last entry to start push back which is how you get GSX prompt for de-icing.  Then complete the de-icing.   I don't know if you can cancel push-back after de-icing completes in GSX, but you may be able to Abort it, then re open GSX to Request Boarding, so will try that next.

As far as relaxing the shut down engine requirement, w/ GSX are prompted not to start engines due to ice conditions so that would lose sync but hard to make it all perfect!  Thanks!

[noel]

Another option is to extend the flaps on the Dash 8 and save it into your default panel state--this should solve the problem w/o the need to start an engine.

Addendum:  nope, I saved the panel state w/ flaps extended but when I closed P3D and reopened to the default panel state the flaps closed themselves ;o(

[Travis]

The Engines Not Running and Flaps Extended requirements are independent and were designed to not conflict.

So if they are, we'll sort it out!

If you're having manual de-icing (that is, folks with brooms and scrapers) then they don't want spinning propellers and won't start if you're engines are running. They don't care about your flaps though.

If you're having fluid de-icing then your engine should be able to run (or not)... but they want your flaps extended so they can spray all areas.

You can bypass the Flaps Extended requirement for an aircraft by declaring the flaps as INOP. That's a Band-Aid, but not a true fix. A true fix would be something we would do in code for the MJ Q400 interface (declare the flaps as unneeded for deicing).

If you're being told to stop your engines for a fluid deicing then that's a fix we need to look into....

REgards,

[mjl1966]

six years later....

Are we ever going to see this fixed? I just ran into it for the very first time tonight. Really disappointed because YOUR deicing animation is awesome. (Much better than GSX)

[mjl1966]

Good news is FSC is very well integrated with GSX de-icing, so we're able to get the job done.

[mjl1966]

Number one running, no flaps.

youtu.be/2P7fjtx6K6k?t=217

[peter]

So, the trick to declare flaps INOP doesn't work for you?

Peter

[Travis]

Hello MJ,

First I would like to personally thank you for the kind words you have concerning our deice and anti-ice sprays!  They represent my first (and likely only) efforts to make flight-sim Effects.

(Btw, from what I've seen, the effects in GSX Pro (for MSFS) blow everything else away.)

Now as to our ground deicing requirements... I can see that soon after the initial posts in this thread were made, I made a clean-up in code that stands up until today.  Last year, I prevented the FO from barking at the Captain about retracting the flaps after off-stand deicing, but everything else has been unchanged.

I know of no "bugs", but if you can point to some, please be specific and I will address your issues.

So to be clear, here are the four requirement to begin (and maintain) "Spray Ground Deicing and Anti-icing".

1. Parking Brakes On - no aircraft movement;
2. Exits Closed;
3. Engines Off... except for turbojets deicing off stand;
4. Flaps Extended.

Now please be aware that these are FSCaptain's Requirements.  Other add-ons or individual airlines may have different issues.

I'm guessing that all Captains can agree on the need for 1 and 2, and most (if not all) can agree on 3.  (We allow turbojets to keep their engines running when deicing at a DDF simply to allow them to keep their packs running.)

I can see where an argument can be made to change that requirement to allow all pressurized aircraft to keep their engines running at a DDF, but in checking for real world procedures for the first posts in this thread, we've not made that change simply because we feel that propeller blades need to be able to be sprayed and cleared of ice... and that would be difficult to do when spinning.   But I can be easily convinced to allow an option to choose between the two requirement if any Captain asks for such.

Now when it comes to Flaps, there are many differing Requirements and Advisories that take several factors into account, including the current precipitation state, as well as the presence of contaminated taxiways.  Some manufacturers specify to keep Flaps retracted until takeoff, while others advise to deploy flaps fully during deicing, but then to retract them during taxi-out.

Apparently , parking with extended flaps is a big no-no.  So we won't go there just yet....

In any event, it's easy to find videos showing different aircraft having flaps retracted or deployed during spray operations.  Airline A may allow such, while Airline B may not. 

So if this requirement is causing problems, in FSCaptain 1.8.4 I will include either an aircraft-specific option or a global option (or both?) to "Allow Ground Deicing with Retracted Flaps".
--------

Here's one final thing I'd like to mention.  Since we now have an iron-clad Runway Detector (and since I'm working on the Runway Display & Selector screen) it would be trivial to add a new requirement that after Ground Deice Spraying, your Flaps must be Retracted during Taxi-out and to only be Deployed while on the Departure Runway.  Otherwise, something bad might happen, such as your HOT might begin to rapidly decline. (? ? ?)

(Please know that if we do add this requirement, I would also add an option to ignore it on an aircraft-specific and / or global basis.)

Best,

[Travis]

I'm now working on tying the Runway Selector bits to the Designate Deicing bits (it's been years and I can't wait to make this work!) and I do see one area where a Flaps-INOP declaration might not be honored.

I've marked that for closer study for later this week.

Best,

[mjl1966]

Came across this with QW 146 as well. Spooled up engines, set flaps to 33 and no dice. FSC is not detecting flaps... Honestly, I'd just lose the whole flap thing. It's not an industry standard and it's causing more problems than it's worth. Brings the entire FSC session to a screeching halt because there are no options around it except to fiddle and start over.

Just ditch it.